[geoffmozz]

Any chance we could get the OS crag detail on the UK OpenAndroMap?

I’ve just discovered the JohnThornMaps via Locus Map.
https://www.locusmap.eu/johnthornmaps/

The UK map is a vector map (.map – 1.6GB) and includes all the accurate OS crag information in vector form. Could this information be included in the OpenAndroMap of the UK please? That would be really good 🙂

See attached pic of the OS map, JohnThornMap and the OpenAndroMap.

[JohnPercy]

Having UK knowledge, I’ll bat first.
The crag detail is part of OS OpenData, and is therefore freely available. However it’s not in the OSM data that the maps here rely upon, nor can I see any way of getting this OS information into a usable form for OSM.
I think that the crag lines are schematic rather than actual details, though.

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[geoffmozz]

John, thanks…I don’t have the techie knowledge.

I’m curious…what do you mean by ‘schematic rather than actual details’?

I hoped that as OpenAndroMaps ended up as a mapsforge file, and that the JohnThornMap also uses OSM data to generate a mapsforge file, that the crag detail could be incorporated in either?

[JohnPercy]

I think the lines indicate that there are crags, not the actual lines of the crags. Rather like the pylon markers on OS maps indicate there are pylons but not their actual position.

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[geoffmozz]

John,
Sorry…I’m still not with you. I think the crag markings represent the actual crags reasonably well. In the attached picture is a steep gully by Symonds Knott on Scafell that I know, having been up and down it a few times. The OS crag markings are a fair representation of a very complicated bit of ground. On the JohnThornMap the crag markings are vector shapes. Points joined by straight lines. That’s not obvious at normal zoom levels but zoom in and it becomes apparent (see attached image).

Those JohnThornMaps are vector mapsforge maps and are a combination of OSM data and OS data. eg The path down the gully is an OSM path not found on the OS mapping.

I’m just trying to understand why JohnThorn can incorporate the OS crag markings (and OS contours) in a vector mapsforge map along with OSM data but that can’t be done with OpenAndroMaps.

I’m a fan of OAM so always interested in them being better, if possible. I wish I had the techie skills to get stuck in.

Thanks for your time 🙂

[pwb999]

I agree with geoffmozz.
I live in Cumbria, England and do a bit of Fell walking.
OS Maps are excellent but lack OSM paths that many hikers add to the OSM database. Also for some bizarre reason OS do not show barriers such as Stiles and Gates. OS show Cattle grids however which can be difficult for some to negotiate.
There are many hiking apps available most of which rely on OSM. Alas OSM lacks Crag data.
This is vital for walkers who often have to walk in bad visibility and can easily become injured due to crags or worse.
The fact that Crag data is now freely available via OS Opendata program as well as their contours via a product called Terrain 50 should be incorporated into OSM.
OSM was intended to be useful to all users and I don’t understand why OSM doesn’t use OS data to make its own Map the best available.

Regards
Peter B.

[ChristianK]

Please give me a link where to download crag data.
If available in vector-format

As I can see on OS-Maps these Crags are simple areas consisting of Nodes and Ways.
Lots of these, but simple.

All I would need is the Dataset in a common format to give it a try.

Edit:

For me, after some minutes of investigation, it looks like that
the JohnThorpeMaps are __NOT__ in Mapsforge format but in .sqlitedb
See and download from here:
https://www.the-thorns.org.uk/opendata/opendown.html
So: These maps are OS-Opendata plus Overlays from OSM (Routes) but basicly OS-Survey and not OSM with OS Overlays (like crag data)

This is an essential different approach than Mapsforge.
… and perfect for UK

[JohnPercy]

After some research, here are the details. Crags etc are part of the ornaments ESRI shapefile included in OS OpenData VectorMap District shapefiles.
Ornament features are facsimiles of artwork, represented as a polygon, these were originally drawn on paper maps
to depict coastal rocks, outcropping rocks, cartographic slopes and scree.

More details and free download from https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-government/products/vectormap-district

I couldn’t see how they could be incorporated in OSM or OAM but others may know far better!

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[ChristianK]

So here are the crags in Scotland and Shetlands map plus a modified Elevate-Theme:

https://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/misc/openstreetmap/openandromaps/mapsV5/test/

For me it was more or less an experiment to see if OpenData could be integrated into Mapsforge. Well, it is possible, but the effort is considerable.
The shapefiles of the individual tiles have to be imported manually into JOSM and saved as .osm (at least 10GB Java heap necessary for Josm).
Then the individual osm files have to be delimited in their own ID areas (overlapping = data salad in the map), remerged and ID-cleaned again.
Then merge the tiles and that’s it.

The map size suffers significantly = 200MB additional for Scotland.map.

AND:
As John rightly pointed out, the crags are only drawn schematically and do not correspond in detail to the usual satellite images – so it’s quite nice, visually fantastic but far from accurate.

Furthermore, the Crags make a weakness of the OSM data abundantly clear: namely the inaccuracy of the coastlines, to say it nicely.

Take a look at the maps, whether I’ll let this go into series production still needs to be discussed.

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[JohnPercy]

A remarkable achievement!
I think I would revise my assessment that the crags are schematic. The original lines were hand drawn and may reflect the actual topography to a greater or lesser extent.
Also the difference between the crag coastline and that of osm data is not entirely due to lack in osm data. The Ordnance Survey ornaments seen to go as far down as the low water mark, while the normal coast line is the mean sea level. (Even then the OS explain their sea level data shows apparent inconsistencies from tile to tile.) The screen shots show the ornaments protruding beyond the coastline in both OS and OAM maps.

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[JohnPercy]

Also, for comparison, here are screenshots of satellite view of the same area

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ChristianK

[ChristianK]

@Tobias:

Könntest Du bitte diese Rule mit in die Elevate/Elements aufnehmen – ev. kommen die Crags doch in die Standard-Karten von UK.

<rule e="way" k="FEATCODE" v="25550" closed="yes" zoom-min="13">
	<area fill="#707070" />
</rule>

.. ev unter NaturalWays ?

Danke und LG
Christian

[Tobias]

Interesting stuff, I played a bit with this. Some things which came to mind:
– Are there also lines (closed=no)? I didn’t find any, but it would be good to know.
– The tags could have a bit more meaningful names, e.g. k=”os-open-data v=”crags”
– It doesn’t make much sense to display also cliffs at the same time, does it? But solving this in the theme would mean an extra option which makes sense in just a view maps. Maybe no cliffs for maps which have crags?

Developer of Elevate mapstyle

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[ChristianK]

Tobias wrote:

Maybe no cliffs for maps which have crags?

I don’t think that this is an issue – I’v taken a look at several occasions where crags and cliffs are in the same place and for me this is OK
…. and it would start beeing really difficult to handle this.
Inventing a layer with external data ist OK.
This is not that complicated just by inventing a Layer like “external_data.osm.pbf” filled with layers defined by a string in map_list.xls where each single map is defined by paramaeters.

But if we start to exclude several tags for each map I would have to generate tag-mappings for each single map.

Basicly OAM ist OSM based with rare occasions of additional information.
IMO no need for handling this neither in tag-mapping nor by a switch in theme – every exception adds confusion.

Tobias wrote:

The tags could have a bit more meaningful names, e.g. k=“os_open_data v=“crags“

This means an additional run of tag-transform
= no problem
Next update of maps will include k=“os_open_data v=“crags“
(with underscore)

Tobias wrote:

Are there also lines (closed=no)?

I haven’t seen any but I will take a brief look.

This will take a while cause 200kg of IKEA PAX ist waiting to be assembled 🙂

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[JohnPercy]

In the meantime, you may like to try my modified Voluntary themes for either Locus or other Mapsforge apps.

Voluntary and Velocity themes - https://voluntary.nichesite.org

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