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  • #23804
    R5O.nl
    R5O.nl
    Teilnehmer

    Pls see here in my town called Tilburg, Netherlands:
    https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51.56730&mlon=5.08978#map=18/51.56730/5.08978
    It seems as if the OAM vector map renders too many (eastbound) cycle lanes along the highway: it renders 2 cycle lanes, on both sides of the ‚Molenstraat‘, which is oneway. Problem is that eastbound a separate cycle lane was added to OSM, which matches reality. I argue that OAM now wrongly renders the eastbound cycle lane, so it ignores the oneway=true tag.
    This is the present tags:
    cycleway=lane
    highway=tertiary
    name=Molenstraat
    oneway=yes
    I could be tempted to change it into:
    cycleway:right=lane
    But that should not be necessary because of the oneway=yes
    I now wonder whether OAM needs some updating, or that I as mapper need to cater for it and help it by using cycleway:right.
    Thanks for looking into this!

    • Dieses Thema wurde geändert vor 4 Monate, 2 Wochen von R5O.nl R5O.nl.
    #23808
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    You’re right, oneway=yes isn’t respected when rendering cycleway=lane/track. As those tags and others are transformed to cw_lane_both/cw_track_both before being treated in the theme, it can’t be done differently at the moment without a change in the maps – Christian, can you look at it?

    #24712
    R5O.nl
    R5O.nl
    Teilnehmer

    I am wondering: do you intend to look into this and update the rendering for oneway streets?
    Or should I cater from now on by adding cycleway:right=lane ?
    Tnx!

    #24717
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    Hi,

    We had a lot of internal discussion about this issue – really.
    The conclusio is: Regardless what we ever dooing – we will change one error with an other.
    The tagging is absolutely stupid.
    Noone can reder this 100% right.

    On which side is the cyclelane?
    In the right side if you look in oneway direction?
    In countrys with leftside traffic too? – I don’t want to maintain two makes for RH and LH countrys.

    Tobias and I agreed that we will handle this problem (more or less) by transforming the lane on oneway roads to cycleway:right – HOWEVER this is maybe right or maybe wrong.
    I really hate such things – sorry.

    So
    OpenCycleMap renders both lanes (wrong – there is no lane but an extra tagged cycleway on the left)
    OSM do not render these lanes (wrong – there is a cycleway:right)
    WaymarkedTrails (Lonvia) do not render these lanes (wrong – there is a cycleway:right)

    So I have to decide what to do.
    Best would be to change the (the wrong and confusing) tagging of such roads/lanes

    Best regards,
    Christian

    #24728
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    Hi Frank,

    I’v seen that you changed the tagging of this road.
    Anyway, there are changes in prozessing the lanes in oneway streets – iits not perfect but it will reduce errors.

    The solution @tobias proposed is the best one:
    We add these tags :
    k=“cycleway_lane“ v=“cw_lane_oneway“
    k=“cycleway_track“ v=“cw_track_oneway“

    according to these rules.

    [/crayon]

    So its up to the theme composer to handle these tags – this means that (eg) John Percy can render these lanes|tracks on the left side for his OS-Style Theme.

    Not perfect but better…..

    Best regards
    Christian

    #24734
    R5O.nl
    R5O.nl
    Teilnehmer

    Hi Christian,
    I want to thank you guys for all the effort!
    I agree that this is a troubling area and I welcome the improvements that you propose above,
    As for testing, I just reverted the tagging of the road ‚Molenstraat‘ where it all began:
    https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/61159509
    In the comments in that OSM changeset I refer to this discussion on OAM.
    With the proposed changes above I reckon that theme like Elevate will be updated accordingly.
    Perfection is not affordable, but improvements are always welcomed.
    Best Regards,
    Frank

    1 Teilnehmer(n) gefällt dieser Beitrag
    #24738
    JohnPercy
    JohnPercy
    Teilnehmer

    Some of this is really a mapping problem. I think the map data ought to define whether the lane/track is on the right or left of the road, rather than the renderer having to allow for driving on the left or right.
    I don’t think this addresses my two previous problems mentioned in https://www.openandromaps.org/en/oam-forums/topic/cycle-tracks-from-1-dec-2016/page/2/#post-15492
    To be honest I don’t really see how all the variants can be resolved satisfactorily.

    1 Teilnehmer(n) gefällt dieser Beitrag
    #24752
    JohnPercy
    JohnPercy
    Teilnehmer

    Instead of adding the tags

    k=”cycleway_lane” v=”cw_lane_oneway”
    k=”cycleway_track” v=”cw_track_oneway”

    is it possible to add

    k=”cycleway_lane” v=”cw_lane_left”
    k=”cycleway_track” v=”cw_track_left”

    or

    k=”cycleway_lane” v=”cw_lane_right”
    k=”cycleway_track” v=”cw_track_right”

    according to the country and which side of the road they drive?
    Just a thought.

    #24754
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    according to the country and which side of the road they drive?
    Just a thought.

    Yes this would be possible.
    However, this would mean to maintain two versions of the tagtransform konfiguration.

    #24756
    JohnPercy
    JohnPercy
    Teilnehmer

    You can’t build in a nationwide test for driving_side?
    https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:driving_side

    #24758
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    Its easy to invent a flag (in addition to the dozen of already existing) in my map-configuration setting LH/RH for each map.
    However this would mean (as said obove) that I have to maintain two seperate TagTransform XML configuration files (one for LH and one for RH) and to keep them synced.

    Its not possible to pass a globar var to TagTransform and drive the behaviour of TT like

    IF global_var=LH then
    RULE for LH cylcelane /RULE
    elsif global_var=RH then
    RULE for LH cylcelane /RULE
    endif

    Its not possible to drive the behaviour of TT over more than one OSM:Object (one ID)
    So I cant say: IF driving_direction form OSM:ID= … etc..

    Well I have 5 or 6 different TagMappings assigned to different maps (creation of TagMapping is done by a programm to keep these synced) – and this counts off.
    For a silly lane_Tagging it does’nt IMO.

    Its not possible to do a second TagTransform run with only the lane subset of rules cause it takes ages for TT to work through the OSM file. (50GB in case of Germany map, using Java interpreter and pure XML)

    If I would find an easy solution I will do it.
    I really hope that mappers use cycleway:right|left in future – thats the only real solution.

    1 Teilnehmer(n) gefällt dieser Beitrag
    #24764
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    Some of this is really a mapping problem. I think the map data ought to define whether the lane/track is on the right or left of the road, rather than the renderer having to allow for driving on the left or right.

    That’s what everyone who approaches this thing from a logical point of view thinks (me as well), but the Wiki clearly states:
    „cycleway=lane is used to tag two-way streets where there are cycle lanes on both sides of the road, or one-way streets where there is a lane operating in the direction of main traffic flow. “
    So this is defect by design. It probably should be suggested that this interpretation is deprecated in favor of the already existing easier one. But until it’s not used anymore, there’s not much we can do. I totally agree with Christian that two separate tag-transforms just because of this silly tagging isn’t worth it. And even if we would try – there are several left-sided countries with borders to right-sided ones, and as OAM maps of a country are always larger than the border, there would be still the possibility of having it wrong.
    So I think there’s no perfect solution.

    1 Teilnehmer(n) gefällt dieser Beitrag
    #24891
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    When adding this to Elevate, I stumbled upon this
    I think we need the same rules for oneway=-1, resulting in:
    k=”cycleway_lane” v=”cw_lane_oneway_rev”
    k=”cycleway_track” v=”cw_track_oneway_rev”
    …and those will be rendered on the other side.

    1 Teilnehmer(n) gefällt dieser Beitrag
    #24908
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    Done

    Will be included in next update.
    Maps with date from 8.8.2018 on

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #24920
    JohnPercy
    JohnPercy
    Teilnehmer

    That’s excellent.
    @ChristianK Now that we are looking at cycle lanes and tracks again, how about the following issues, which apply to unilateral (one-sided) cycle tracks and lanes tagged with (for example) cycleway:left:
    (a) oneway:bicycle=”ow_bic_no” for unilateral cycle tracks and lanes in two-way streets as well as one-way streets. This lessens the complexity of the pre-processing rather than increases it and would be very simple to implement.
    (b) opposite-way unilateral cycle lanes and tracks in one-way streets
    All as in https://www.openandromaps.org/en/oam-forums/topic/cycle-tracks-from-1-dec-2016/page/2/#post-15492
    I have real life examples in mind for both of these.
    Please.

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