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  • #3479

    pedja
    Teilnehmer

    Hi,
    I love OpenAndroMaps project. Actually, it made me get much more involved in mapping OpenStreeetMaps of my area.

    I especially appreciate fine styles for mountain areas.

    Here are some issues i stumbled upon. There are some objects I am not sure how to properly map so they are rendered on OpenAndroMaps. These obects are important as they are remarkable on the ground and used for orientation.

    COTTAGE

    Cottage is very small wooden house used as shelter for village people when they are in mountain taking care of live stock. They can be rendered same as shelter but I would like to avoid confusion as these cottages are not for public use and are often locked. It would be inappropriate that someone reading map guess that is public shelter and get disappointed when he arrives there.

    Rendering could be similar to shelter,except, color could be dark brown or black

    GRAVE

    Single grave, with a thumb stone. It is not a monument, but ordinary grave placed alone roadside. In my country they are common and very often used for orientation. I could not find proper way to map this, except as graveyard, which is not right and could also lead to confusion.

    WELL

    I mapped some wells but they are not rendered at all. They are important objects offering drinking water in mountains so they should be visible on map.

    Can someone instruct me how to map there in OpenStreetMap so I get them rendered properly on OpenAndroMaps?

    #3480
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    Hi Pedja,
    thanks for your kind words! It also got me into mapping much more…

    COTTAGE
    Cottage is very small wooden house used as shelter for village people when they are in mountain taking care of live stock.

    I think building=hut is appropriate here:
    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dhut

    It is included in Openandromaps, as you can see here, but as equivalent to building=yes, so you can’t add a special symbol, it’s just rendered as a building. As you write it’s not for public use, and so I think adding a symbol would just clutter the map.

    GRAVE
    Single grave, with a thumb stone. It is not a monument, but ordinary grave placed alone roadside. In my country they are common and very often used for orientation. I could not find proper way to map this, except as graveyard, which is not right and could also lead to confusion.

    There is only historic=tomb, but this is only for significant, historic tombs. There’s a proposal for grave=*, but this is pretty new, and if you think about graveyards where every grave could be tagged (as nowadays every tree), this could be a pretty bad idea to add it to the map. Maybe historic=memorial, which is already in OAM?

    WELL
    I mapped some wells but they are not rendered at all. They are important objects offering drinking water in mountains so they should be visible on map.

    man_made=water_well is not included at the moment as you can see at tag-mapping. Christian recently announced a feature-freeze, as some maps have problems being built, but maybe this is something to be considered.

    Can someone instruct me how to map there in OpenStreetMap so I get them rendered properly on OpenAndroMaps?

    Well, not every OSM tag is added to OAM, because there are even tags for street lights, and this would just blow up the files and make the maps cluttered. So have a look at tag-mapping to get a comprehensive list of what’s included.

    Best regards,
    Tobias

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    #3481

    pedja
    Teilnehmer

    Tobias, thanks for quick response. It was helpful.

    I will try building=hut and also building=cabin if it is supported. It is important to be rendered as it is significant for orientation in mountains.

    About grave, it is not memorial so that tagging is inappropriate. Is just plain grave with thumb stone, but alone, not within a graveyard. The best I could find is to set cemetery=grave but does not render anywhere.

    For wells, I used man_made=water_well but it is sadly not rendered. I hope they will support it in a future.

    #3483
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    Tobias is right, man_made=water_well should be included.
    The next update of openandromaps will see this tag rendered at the same zoom-level as natural=spring.
    Included only as node.

    However, in my opinion it should’nt be rendered as water source if drinking_water=yes is not present.

    Best regards, Christain

    Edit: If you want to test the new mapping I will render one maps out of the regular shedule, just say what map you want.

    #3488
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    I will try building=hut and also building=cabin if it is supported. It is important to be rendered as it is significant for orientation in mountains.

    Yes, both are rendered, just like every other building. As there aren’t that many buildings in the mountains they usually stand out.

    About grave, it is not memorial so that tagging is inappropriate. Is just plain grave with thumb stone, but alone, not within a graveyard. The best I could find is to set cemetery=grave but does not render anywhere.

    If you look here, cemetery=grave isn’t what your looking for as well. The best guess for the future might be the proposal for grave=*.

    But all those tags aren’t rendered because either they are pretty new (grave=*) or discussion was going nowhere (cemetary=grave). So at this state it doesn’t make much sense to add one of those before they are really established. So you might back one of the proposals to get this established.

    My fear is just that this could result in mass tagging every single grave in a cemetery, which would be a reason to not add it to a map. So a tag like grave=singular would make sense for your uses.

    Best regards,
    Tobias

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    #3490

    pedja
    Teilnehmer

    It seems there is no official way to map single grave, so I could not make it be rendered anywhere, not just OpenAndroMaps.

    Although i share your concerns, I guess OSM siple rule: if it is on the ground it should be mappable.

    In this case single graves are outstanding to help in orientation in mountains.

    #3492

    pedja
    Teilnehmer

    Tobias is right, man_made=water_well should be included.
    If you want to test the new mapping I will render one maps out of the regular shedule, just say what map you want.

    That would be great. I am working on area which is part of your Balcan map.

    How often is it updated regularly?

    Is there a way I can render that locally so I can work quicker? This area needs number of fixtures in OSM to be properly rendered.

    #3493
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    It seems there is no official way to map single grave, so I could not make it be rendered anywhere, not just OpenAndroMaps.

    That’s why I meant: if it’s important to you, join the discussion here, and add something like grave=singular. Many tags exist officially because someone thought they are missing and he proposed them.

    Although i share your concerns, I guess OSM siple rule: if it is on the ground it should be mappable.

    It should be mapable (this means adding to the database), but using everything in the database for a map? I don’t think this is usable for densely mapped areas anymore, important stuff will get lost and mapsizes will get blown up.

    If you have a look at micromapping. In some areas here in Germany a lot of regular stuff is already mapped, so mappers get „bored“ and use tags like natural=tree which was meant for lone and significant trees for every tree which isn’t in a forest (and sometimes even that). Now for example every single tree in this graveyard is mapped.

    natural=tree was added to Openandromaps because significant trees (as your singular graves) are important for orientation. But with micromapping of trees, natural=tree became useless, so Christian had to filter for additional tags like name= and some denotation. But that way some significant trees which only have natural=tree aren’t shown.

    So I learned that way that you have to be cautious with some tags if they could be used otherwise and lose their potential. That’s why I’m hesitant with grave, as you say it is important in some cases, but most cases it is not. That’s why a good tag scheme is important from the beginning.

    Best regards,
    Tobias

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    #3494
    ChristianK
    ChristianK
    Keymaster

    Tobias is right, man_made=water_well should be included.
    If you want to test the new mapping I will render one maps out of the regular shedule, just say what map you want.

    That would be great. I am working on area which is part of your Balcan map.

    How often is it updated regularly?

    Is there a way I can render that locally so I can work quicker? This area needs number of fixtures in OSM to be properly rendered.

    Hi,

    The balkan.map will be available tomorrow.
    Its not possible to render OAM for a user.
    The maps are the result of a most complicated make-chain with a dozend of tools involved.

    Although i share your concerns, I guess OSM siple rule: if it is on the ground it should be mappable.

    L’art pour l’art….
    Well thats nice, tolerant and real cool in a discussion but it comes to an end when the map isnt displyaed any more cause you run in overflow or the rendering is so slow that its useless or the real important pois are flooded by well,…L’art pour l’art.
    Sorry but once you have to live with theorys its a bit more complicated ;-) and the reason why most tags are not rendered in any map.

    ;-)

    Anyway, your sugestion with water_well is perfect OK so I added it.

    Best regards,
    Christian

    #3500

    pedja
    Teilnehmer

    I checked out discussion about grave tag and found out that already proposed grave=yes or grave=grave would do the job.

    I understand your point on overmaping.and agree that there is an issue. I myself few times argued about overmapping and always was shut with the same answer: it is better to have option something to be mapped even it it means cluttering data, than having no option to map it at all – if it is mapped it does not have to be rendered. I agreed with that point, in time.

    I guess it is just matter of what is important to whom.Although we agree here that mapping of every single grave on cemetery is not needed, one who visits very large graveyard he is not familiar with, could be delighted to see that it is mapped in OSM…

    For this particular case I guess rendering grave makes sense on hiking and cycling maps for rural areas. In cities, it does not make such sense. I suppose there is option for rendering tools to make distinction.

    The is interesting proposal of a key importance (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:importance) which is actually already in use in very similar projects (although it is still in proposal). So it might be good starting point.

    I’ve downloaded updated Balkan map, copied to Android together with new styles,but neither building=hut not building=cabin is rendered. I guess, you use OSM source which was not synchronized yet.

    Never mind. I will wait a while, for new regular update when I guess everything will be in it’s place.

    #3503
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    I checked out discussion about grave tag and found out that already proposed grave=yes or grave=grave would do the job.

    I would agree to this without the afterthoughts about mass tagging above. grave=yes doesn’t say if it is in a cemetery or not, and is very likely to be used for mass tagging. So either an additional tag would be needed if one only wants to render those graves which aren’t in a cemetery (it doesn’t matter if the cemetery is in a city or rural), as with denotation=landmark for natural=tree.
    Or: Why not use grave= as in the proposal, with something like singular, lone, single etc., so you don’t need a second tag? If your used defined tag is used enough (to make it more used, propose it), renderers might use it.

    importance= is an interesting idea, but with its common values it doesn’t say anything if a grave would be singular or in a cemetery. One could add importance=local/regional/etc. to it no matter where it is.

    Best regards,
    Tobias

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    #3504

    pedja
    Teilnehmer

    My thinking is that if we use grave=yes with importance=rural that would clearly make distinction when such object should be rendered.

    I have nothing against your idea for specifically denote singular grave although I am not quite sure if it is needed. I saw in proposal that there are ideas to use ‚is_in‘ to distinguish if grave is within cemetery or not and it seems more logical approach.

    #3505
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    But if you look at grave=yes and importance=rural – does it say anything about if it’s in a cemetery?

    I think it’s very important that OSM tags are as easy to understand as possible. This is not the case here, it’s not an exact description. Nobody would know this if he sees this combination.

    is_in is used for different purposes if you look at the wiki, but if in theory you want to filter all graves out that have is_in=cemetery – is it guaranteed that all grave=yes in a cemetery have this tag? Not in my experience.

    In my experience with OSM the more vague/open to interpretation a tag is, the more it is used in different meanings. It’s much more exact to filter by a well defined tag that an object has, than a not exactly defined combination or something it has not, because those are more guessing than knowing how it was meant by the mapper.

    You have a very exact idea of what you want to map, so map it as exact as possible.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    #3608
    vancori
    vancori
    Teilnehmer

    Hello Tobias and Christan
    I wanted to ask what you think, if you can add to the map, already in the next versone of the theme, the points where there are defibrillators AED, which are an important lifesaving. Think about it ..
    This is the OSM tag
    https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Ddefibrillator

    Best regards
    Davide

    #3609
    Tobias
    Tobias
    Moderator

    Hi Davide,
    emergency=defibrillator is already in the maps and rendered with the Elevate themes, have a look at tag-mapping here.
    Best regards,
    Tobias

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

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