Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)
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  • #52250
    Avatar photoTobias
    Keymaster

    I may have done something wrong but the Elevate theme doesn’t work well with the crags on my phone. I can still see the old OSM crag markings clearly marked in a bold dark colour. The new OS crags appear in a really faint grey and are barely visible. The screenshot I saw of your map with the elevate theme looked good……

    Could you give me some examples (OSM links if possible) where they are barely visible? The problem with the crags in Elevate is that they are only in there for the UK; but it’s designed to work everywhere in the world without them. So the colors are adjusted to that, and e.g. contour lines, ridges and names of landscape features don’t work with massive darker crags, e.g. when you look at Ben Nevis. The crags in current Elevate were also meant to be without OSM cliffs and I hope Christian will introduce a UK cliff tag, so they can be designed differently.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    • This topic was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by Avatar photoTobias.
    #52256
    geoffmozz
    Participant

    Tobias…thanks for caring and all your work :-)

    The image you’ve just shared is identical to what I see. So it looks like my setup is working as intended. However I was remembering an image from John Percy showing OS crags on an OpenAndroMap (attached) which had much darker crag markings (better).

    I understand that there seem to be a few missing areas from the OS opendata and that’s why you’re retaining the old OSM crag markings. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that the OS fix their opendata so we can use the OS crags only for the UK…..and make them darker. I hadn’t come across those missing areas in my travels.

    The light grey OS crag markings are more visible on the white background by Ben Nevis. My playground is the Lake District where the colour scheme is different. I’ve attached a few screenshots.

    Sca Fell cliffs by Symonds Knott are here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/aH6N2XKghTW4ptg68
    Great Gable & Napes Needle here: https://nakarte.me/#m=16/54.48085/-3.22185&l=O/Gbt
    Pillar Rock here:https://nakarte.me/#m=16/54.49904/-3.27882&l=O/Gbt

    #52260
    geoffmozz
    Participant

    Two more screenshots…

    #52266
    Avatar photoTobias
    Keymaster

    The light grey OS crag markings are more visible on the white background by Ben Nevis. My playground is the Lake District where the colour scheme is different. I’ve attached a few screenshots.

    Thanks, I mainly tested coastal and mountain areas, so yes, with darker backgrounds it doesn’t work well. I’ll look into it. At first I made the crags as dark as cliffs, but this didn’t work well too.

    And yes, as I wrote in the other thread, having both cliff and crag is difficult; it would be good to be able to render cliffs different in the UK in comparison to the rest of the world (maybe just the names), but the tagging in the maps has to change for that.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    #52269
    geoffmozz
    Participant

    I appreciate the tight rope you’re trying to walk. Thanks for trying,

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by geoffmozz.
    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #52282
    Avatar photoTobias
    Keymaster

    I appreciate the tight rope you’re trying to walk. Thanks for trying,

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by geoffmozz.

    So next try. I’ve made crags darker for ZL13/14 and added a slight dark border at higher zoom levels. That way ridges and landscape captions are still visible at high zooms; I think the data for crags was meant for lower zoom levels, at higher zoom level the areas get too wide; as they are areas and not lines we can’t do anything about that.
    I also tested in the example removing OSM cliffs in the theme and only have names of cliffs (e.g. Westmorland Crags) – I think that works well (if Christian adds an extra tag for cliffs in maps with crags). The only problem then would be the missing OS crags.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #52291
    geoffmozz
    Participant

    Is the new theme available to download? I can judge it best of all on my phone.

    I’m quite happy to see the OSM cliffs removed. The OS crag detail is excellent and represents the ground very well. There are countless locations in the UK where the ground is dangerous rocky and steep and there are no OSM markings of any kind.

    eg Here’s Beinn Alligin in Scotland in Torridon a hiking honeypot.
    An OSM map: https://nakarte.me/#m=15/57.58593/-5.56960&l=Czt
    With OS crags: https://nakarte.me/#m=15/57.58593/-5.56960&l=Czt/Gbt

    See also the nearby Liatach and Beinn Eighe: https://nakarte.me/#m=13/57.57031/-5.46759&l=Czt/Gbt

    Give me OS crags every time.

    #52328
    Avatar photoTobias
    Keymaster

    Is the new theme available to download? I can judge it best of all on my phone.

    I added an XML to this post. Just put it in the same folder as Elevate.xml

    I’m quite happy to see the OSM cliffs removed. The OS crag detail is excellent and represents the ground very well. There are countless locations in the UK where the ground is dangerous rocky and steep and there are no OSM markings of any kind.

    Yes, I agree, as written e.g. here:
    https://www.openandromaps.org/oam-forums/topic/ordnance-survey-crag-detail-for-uk-maps/page/2#post-51528
    https://www.openandromaps.org/oam-forums/topic/ordnance-survey-crag-detail-for-uk-maps/page/3#post-52096
    I would love to have this data from topographic maps for the Alps, too, but as there are so many countries involved it won’t happen. At least more and more countries are releasing free contour data.
    But cliffs in OSM are by definition something different, and crags are not just tagged with cliff, there are other tags for different aspects), so it’s a bit apples and oranges.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

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    #52345
    geoffmozz
    Participant

    @Tobias
    I see you’ve removed the OSM cliff/crag details. That helps, thank you. They are just a less precise way of showing the crag detail. However they were a darker colour and helped highlight the steep dangerous ground.

    I’d like to experiment with a slightly darker grey for the OS crags. Can you tell me what I need to change in the XML file so I can play with that? I know about the colour codes I just don’t know what to ‘find’ in the file so I can change it.

    Thanks…

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by geoffmozz.
    #52356
    Avatar photoJohnPercy
    Participant

    Look for os_open_data

    Voluntary and Velocity themes - https://voluntary.nichesite.org

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #52388
    Avatar photoChristianK
    Keymaster

    Hallo Tobias,

    Ich habe dich nicht vergessen – bin nur zZeit knapp mit den Resourcen.
    So ganz einfach ist es leider nicht eine Ausnahmebehandlung zu machen die auch für alle anderen Karten so konsistent verwendbar ist.
    Mit zusätzlichen Layern und zu löschenden Tags war das kein Riesenproblem, das steht im zentralen Excel – das ist sich noch ausgegangen.
    Worauf aber die uk_cliffs hinauslaufen ist ein für jede Karte eigenes tag-transform.
    Geht, keine Frage – der Aufwand bei er Wartung ist aber enorm und mir gehen auch die definierten Variablen-Felder im Spreadsheet aus (DAS ist ein Problem da an dieser Dimensionierung viele Scripts hängen)

    Noch etwas: der Crag-Layer hat nicht die gleiche Abdeckung wie die UK-Map – es fehlen in den OS-Opendata Teile von N-Irland und die Französische Küste.

    Um es klar zu sagen: Mir wäre lieber wenn ich uns allen diese Kartenspezifischen Tag-Transforms ersparen könnte.
    Wenn Du das für unbedingt nötig erachtest mach ich es!

    ————–
    I haven’t forgotten you – I’m just short of resources at the moment.
    Unfortunately, it is not that easy to make an exception treatment that is also feasible for all other maps.
    With additional layers and tags to be deleted, it was not a huge problem, that is in the central Excel – that still turned out.
    But what the uk_cliffs are leading to is a separate tag-transform for each map.
    It is possible, no question – but the effort is enormous.

    One more thing: the Crag layer does not have the same coverage as the UK map – parts of N-Ireland and the French coast are missing in the OS opendata.

    To be clear, I’d prefer if I could avoid all of us having to do these map-specific tag transforms.
    If you think it’s absolutely necessary, I’ll do it!

    LG, Christian
    Der gerade gezwungenermaßen seinen altehrwürdigen Thinkpad T410 auf Win10 umstellt….

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Avatar photoChristianK.
    #52391
    Avatar photoJohnPercy
    Participant

    For me, given the gaps in OS Opendata, using both OSM cliffs and OS crags in styles that complement each other seems the best solution.

    Voluntary and Velocity themes - https://voluntary.nichesite.org

    #52393
    Avatar photoTobias
    Keymaster

    Ich habe dich nicht vergessen – bin nur zZeit knapp mit den Resourcen.
    So ganz einfach ist es leider nicht eine Ausnahmebehandlung zu machen die auch für alle anderen Karten so konsistent verwendbar ist.

    Kein Problem, geht mir ja auch oft so :-)
    Wegen der Ausnahmebehandlung – cliffs waren ja auch schon Zeitweise nicht mehr enthalten in den UK maps, daher dachte ich es wäre ähnlich wenn man sie da umbenennt?

    Um es klar zu sagen: Mir wäre lieber wenn ich uns allen diese Kartenspezifischen Tag-Transforms ersparen könnte.
    Wenn Du das für unbedingt nötig erachtest mach ich es!

    Kann ich verstehen; dann würde ich wohl doch eine Options-Ebene in den Theme packen. Oder eben wieder ganz die Cliffs raus lassen, aber das ist auch nicht so toll (da dann auch die Namen fehlen).
    Das Problem mit den Crags ist: sie sind ein viel massiveres Element, als alles, was wir sonst die letzten Jahre hinzugefügt haben, und da ist es schwierig, eine Balance mit den bereits vorhandenen Elementen zu finden. Im Gegensatz zu ridge etc. ist cliff in Elevate stark betont, was ohne die crags gut funktioniert; mit einem ähnlich starkem Element dazu leider nicht mehr. Und das ist nicht nur an den Küsten, z.B. auch Ben Nevis, so.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #52395
    Avatar photoTobias
    Keymaster

    For me, given the gaps in OS Opendata, using both OSM cliffs and OS crags in styles that complement each other seems the best solution.

    But that only really works for maps with crags; if you have countries with only cliffs, they can’t complement the crags. As Elevate is mainly designed to work without crags, the more intense design of cliffs which works well in the alps doesn’t work so well with crags.
    One problem for Elevate is that crags can be a very massive new element which only is available in a small part of the world. It would make sense to change color balance etc. for this if it was mainly a UK oriented style, but it’s mainly made for maps without crags.

    Developer of Elevate mapstyle

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #52488
    Avatar photoJohnPercy
    Participant

    As mentioned earlier, I asked the Ordnance Survey about the missing crag ornaments around the Roaches on their OpenData.
    I have now received a reply, that the crags and cliffs were taken from an old 1:10000 series of paper maps (which I take to be the old 6 inch to 1 mile series, which was never completed) and do not include the area in question. They say there is more detail on the Landranger and Explorer maps, which are not free.
    So I think there is little chance of the missing crag ornaments appearing soon.

    Voluntary and Velocity themes - https://voluntary.nichesite.org

    2 users thanked author for this post.
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